The Debaters of This Age: A Novel About Christian Apologetics

By Steven H. Propp

It is June 2018 as an unusual group of scholars, professors, lecturers, and students gather in a California hotel. They are all attendees of an Apologetics conference intended to join qualified representatives of Christian, Deist, and Atheist thought for a two-week, no-holds-barred debate and discussion of their respective positions that will ultimately be included in a book published after the conference.

Evangelical Christianity is represented by advocates of Evidentialist and Presuppositionalist approaches to Apologetics. Catholicism, liberal Christianity, and Deism are also well-supported. The Atheist perspective is advocated by a polemical author and a college professor notorious for attacking the views of his Christian students. As the participants argue over controversial issues such as cosmology, evolution, The Bible, historical evidence for Jesus, the resurrection, biblical prophecies, and the problem of evil, intellectual fireworks result. But what will result when such a volatile and eclectic group is placed face-to-face for more than two weeks?

The Debaters of this Age is the tale of what happens inside a California hotel in 2018 when a group of intellectuals gather to vigorously discuss the religious issues of our time.

• Language: English
• Publisher: iUniverse
• Release date: Feb 5, 2019
• ISBN: 9781532066238

Steven H. Propp

ABOUT THE AUTHOR Steve Propp lives and works in Sacramento, California, and graduated from CSU Sacramento. He has written many novels with spiritual or philosophical themes including Three Brothers (2007), Saved By Philosophy (2007), Josué: Prisoner At Shalem (2005), A Multicultural Christmas (2005), Utopia on the 6th Floor (2004), Beyond Heaven and Earth (2003), Tattered Pilgrims (2001), and Work, Death & Taxes (2000), as well as the nonfiction book Inquiries: Philosophical (2002). He welcomes E-mail from readers at: [e-mail]

Book preview

Copyright © 2019 Steven H. Propp.

All rights reserved. No part of this book may be used or reproduced by any means, graphic, electronic, or mechanical, including photocopying, recording, taping or by any information storage retrieval system without the written permission of the author except in the case of brief quotations embodied in critical articles and reviews.

New International Version (NIV)

Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation

Revised Standard Version (RSV)

Revised Standard Version of the Bible, copyright © 1946, 1952, and 1971 the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America. Used by permission. All rights reserved.

iUniverse

1663 Liberty Drive

Bloomington, IN 47403

www.iuniverse.com

1-800-Authors (1-800-288-4677)

Because of the dynamic nature of the Internet, any web addresses or links contained in this book may have changed since publication and may no longer be valid. The views expressed in this work are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of the publisher, and the publisher hereby disclaims any responsibility for them.

Any people depicted in stock imagery provided by Getty Images are models, and such images are being used for illustrative purposes only.

Certain stock imagery © Getty Images.

ISBN: 978-1-5320-6622-1 (sc)

ISBN: 978-1-5320-6624-5 (hc)

ISBN: 978-1-5320-6623-8 (e)

Library of Congress Control Number: 2019901037

iUniverse rev. date:  02/04/2019

"Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age?"

(1 Cor 1:20, New American Standard Bible)

…contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.

(Jude 3, NASB)

Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.

(1 Pet 3:15, New International Version)

Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord.

(Isaiah 1:18, Revised Standard Version)

CONTENTS

Dedication

Acknowledgements

Chapter 1     Preparations

Chapter 2     The Ground Rules

Chapter 3     The First Day’s Speeches

Chapter 4     The Ground Rules, Revisited

Chapter 5     Getting Re-Acquainted, and Acquainted

Chapter 6     Cosmology, Creation…

Chapter 7     And Evolution

Chapter 8     The Case for Atheism

Chapter 9     Presuppositional Apologetics

Chapter 10   The Bible

Chapter 11   Predicting The Future

Chapter 12   Who Was, and Is, Jesus?

Chapter 13   Is He Risen?

Chapter 14   A New Perspective

Chapter 15   The View From Above

Chapter 16   Goodness With or Without God

Chapter 17   The Problem of Evil

Chapter 18   Those Who Have Never Heard

Chapter 19   What Happens After We Die?

Chapter 20   Is This My Father’s Worldview?

Chapter 21   In Conclusion

Chapter 22   Following Up

Postscript

Bibliography

DEDICATION

To the committed and passionate debaters on all sides of such religious debates as are discussed in this book.

While we may never come to agreement, we can at least hopefully come somewhat closer together, and learn to respect and value the honesty, integrity, and diversity of such different viewpoints.

ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

This book is written with deep love and continuing gratitude for the help, encouragement, and support of:

My readers and friends everywhere;

Our six incredible (and growing!) grandkids: Devonte, Joseph, Dominic, Kayla, Mariah, and Brea;

Joe, Keri, Danielle, and Michael—the parents and role models;

My brother-in-law Darrel Buzynski, and my wondrous and wonderful big sister Susan;

My niece Jennifer and her husband Brade, and their delightful daughters, Madison and Leila;

My favorite nephew Jason;

And all the rest of our diverse, changing, and always loving family;

But especially: to my beautiful, wonderful wife Nancy; whose love has made the last 32 years of my life unbelievably special… and the source of my continual gratitude…

CHAPTER ONE

Preparations

(June 2018; Wednesday late afternoon, the first week)

Theodore Groftson (a tall man in his early 30s, wearing a suit jacket, slacks, and an open white dress shirt) recognized a familiar face entering the main door of the hotel, so he quickly got up out of his seat in the lobby, and waved widely, calling out, Russell! Over here!

The man being called (who appeared to be in his early 50s, and was somewhat shorter than Theodore; he was wearing a neat conservative suit and tie) waved back, and began walking toward Theodore, while pulling his wheeled suitcase behind him with his right hand, and carrying a laptop computer in his left hand.

As the two men met, they shook hands warmly, with the newcomer smiling and saying (with a slight Southern accent), Good to see you, Ted!

Theodore (Ted) took the suitcase from Russell’s hands, saying, Let me take that; then we’ll go get you checked in. They both headed to the Registration desk.

Sounds good, the older man said, exhaling wearily as they walked. It was a long drive up here from Orange County.

Ted nodded, and asked, Do we need to park your car? Or…

The other man shook his head, and said, No; the hotel has valet parking. They’ll leave my keys at the front desk; I’ll pick them up later.

Oh, Ted replied, seeming surprised.

Russell smiled, and observed, I take it you don’t stay in hotels very often.

Ted replied, Actually, I haven’t stayed in a hotel since my honeymoon in Hawaii, which was… let’s see; seven years ago.

You get used to it, the older man said easily. He added, I’ve had to travel to lots of conferences and denominational meetings over the years, so I’m pretty accustomed to it.

Ted nodded, and asked, So how was traffic?

Not too bad, Russell replied. I made it in a little over four hours.

They arrived at the Registration desk, and Ted quickly said to the young African-American woman at the counter (who was standing and typing something at her computer), Hi, Tamika: this is Dr. Russell Thurlow; he’s part of our Conference group, and…

The young woman had already located the older man on the computer, and said to him warmly, Welcome to the Wyatt Hotel, Dr. Thurlow. So you’ll be here for seventeen nights, and leaving Saturday, the 29th?

Russell shrugged, and replied with a smile, That’s the plan.

Ted began explaining to the young woman, Dr. Thurlow is part of our Apologetics Conference, so his bill is included in…

The young woman lifted her hand to stop Ted, then said graciously, His bill is being taken care of by the Apologia College account; that’s understood. She handed an electronic key card to Russell, and said with a smile, You’ll be in Room 517, Dr. Thurlow.

He took the plastic card, and asked, You don’t need my I.D., or anything else?

She shook her head, and said, Our parking staff notified us that you were here. She swiveled her computer monitor around so that he could see a freshly-taken photograph of him on it.

I see, Russell replied, with a wry smile. Very high-tech.

She suggested, I’ll get someone to help you with your bags… but the older man waved it off, saying, We’re fine. Ted and I can handle it.

She said, Your car keys should be dropped off here any minute. Do you want me to send them up to your room, or do you want to pick them up here later?

I’ll get them later, he replied. I won’t be driving anywhere for a while.

Very good, Dr. Thurlow, the young woman said, adding with a beaming smile, We hope you enjoy your stay with us! Just let us know if there’s anything at all we can do to make your stay more comfortable and enjoyable!

Thank you very much, he replied, and he and Ted headed off toward the elevator, with Ted pulling the older man’s suitcase behind him.

When did you check in? Russell asked Ted, who had just pressed the button to summon the elevator.

Yesterday, he replied. I just wanted to make doubly-sure that everything was in order, before people start arriving. Sheepishly, he added, I’ve never tried to organize anything like this, before.

The elevator pinged as it arrived, and Russell said reassuringly, The hardest part for you is over. These large hotels are usually pretty efficient about hosting conventions, conferences, and events like that. They’ll take care of just about everything. They boarded the elevator, and Ted pressed the button for the 5th floor. They rode in silence for a moment.

When they reached the 5th floor, the elevator door opened, and they stepped out. Ted pointed the way, and they headed down the hall.

Russell asked, So has anyone else arrived, yet?

Ted shook his head, and said, They’re not scheduled to arrive until tomorrow between 1:00 and 2:00; the hotel won’t let them check into their rooms until then. With an embarrassed smile, he added, My college wanted to save paying for another night’s hotel bill for the group.

Russell nodded, as they arrived at his room. He used his key card to open the door, and said, Apologia College is already being more than generous, footing the entire bill for such a long conference. He entered his room, then looked around, placing his laptop computer on a table next to the window.

Ted wheeled Russell’s suitcase over to the closet, then explained, Well, our Mission Statement puts ‘Evangelism’ and ‘Apologetics’ as two of our three ‘Key Goals’; so I argued with our Board that this was a perfect opportunity for them to ‘put their money where their mouth was,’ and they finally agreed. He added with a worried expression, But they’re also hoping, however, that between our eventual book sales, DVD sales, and audio CD/MP3 sales, to get most or all of their investment back.

He looked directly at Russell, and said hesitantly, "And you do understand that, unlike the other participants, you and I won’t get paid anything ‘extra’ for all the work we’re doing on this Conference; the College is covering our expenses, but that’s it. Whereas the other participants are getting a standard fee for their participation…"

Russell nodded, and acknowledged, My seminary is already paying my regular salary, so I don’t need anything ‘extra.’ And they were also nice enough to give me ‘released time’ for two-and-a-half weeks, so I could participate in this event; so, thankfully, I won’t have to teach any ‘early session’ Summer courses, this year.

With a slight smile, Ted said, For me, this is my annual three-week ‘vacation’! So I won’t get to have a ‘family vacation’ with my wife and sons, this year… He stopped suddenly, and then said apologetically, I’m sorry; I should give you a chance to unpack, and maybe freshen up or lay down after your long drive…

Russell shook his head, and suggested, Actually, I’d rather get something to eat; I didn’t stop for lunch on the trip down, so I’m both hungry and thirsty. We can just eat in the hotel restaurant, unless you know of a better place.

Ted smiled, and admitted, "I’m afraid that I’ve been so busy with the phone, E-mail, and texting since I arrived yesterday morning, that I’ve been taking all my meals at the MacDougal’s down the street! So having a real meal sounds great…!" Russell nodded, and they both headed to the door.

As they walked down the hall, Russell asked, So how are Holly and the boys?

Holly’s fine, Ted replied, adding, But she’s not looking forward to taking care of Joshua and Andrew by herself for more than two weeks, now that they’re out of school. She was talking about maybe having her Mom come and stay with her while I’m gone, to help out.

That’s a good idea, Russell observed, as they entered the elevator, and he pressed the button for the Lobby. How old are the boys?

Joshua’s six, and Andrew is four, Ted replied. As the elevator descended, he explained, Fortunately, our church also operates the charter school and preschool the boys go to; and we get a discount on tuition, since we’re members of the church. So Holly still has some time during the days to write an occasional article for a Christian magazine or newsletter. She had to give up her blog after Andrew was born, though. The elevator came to a stop as they reached the ground floor.

I’m glad to hear she’s still writing; she’s a very gifted writer, Russell observed, as they left the elevator, and headed toward the restaurant.

Ted snapped his fingers, then reached inside his coat and pulled out an envelope, which he handed to Russell, explaining, I almost forgot; here’s your ‘Per Diem’ check for the Conference. Sheepishly, he added, Sorry it can’t be more; but the College’s Finance Department said…

This is fine, Russell said, looking over the check with satisfaction. Spying an ATM machine in the Lobby, he said, In fact, I’ll deposit it right now, if you don’t mind waiting.

That’s fine, Ted said, as he watched Russell head to the ATM. Ted took the opportunity to check his cell phone, and saw a message from his wife that had been sent about half-an-hour ago; it read:

How R U? All OK?

He texted her back:

Everything’s fine. Russell just got here, and we’re going for an early dinner. Love you, and miss you.

He immediately got the reply:

Love & miss U 2. Mom cmng 2morrow. Call me B4 bed.

He replied.

About 9:00, probably. Tell the boys I miss them.

There was no further message, so he put the phone back in his pocket. Russell returned, stuffing the ATM receipt in his shirt pocket, and they resumed walking toward the restaurant.

Good afternoon, the smiling young man at the restaurant entrance greeted them. Table for two?

Yes, please, Ted replied, and the young man led them to a table in a quiet corner of the nearly empty restaurant, and handed them menus as soon as they were seated.

He asked pleasantly, Would you care for some wine, or perhaps something from the bar?

Ted hesitated, glancing over at Russell (whose eyes were focused on the menu), then said to the young man, No, thank you. Just water will be fine. With ice and straws, please.

The young man nodded, and said, Your waitress will be right by with your water. Enjoy your meal!

Thank you, Ted replied, and he opened his own menu.

A few minutes later, a young woman with her long hair tied up tightly behind her head approached their table, placed two glasses of water in front of them, and said brightly, Good afternoon! My name is Christina; are you ready to order, or should I come back in a few minutes…?

I’m ready, Russell said. I’ll take #16: steak and potatoes.

She wrote this down, and asked, Do you want soup, or salad with that?

Russell frowned, and asked, Do you have vegetable soup?

She replied, "We have a wonderful vegetable soup! Anything else?"

Russell shook his head, so the waitress turned to Ted, and asked, What can I bring you?

Ted said hesitantly, Uhh… can I just get the Fish and Chips? Without the side order?

That’s all? she asked, looking at him with curiosity. Then can I bring you some soup, or salad, or…

No, just fish and chips will be fine, he replied, handing her both his and Russell’s menus.

All righty! she said cheerfully. I’ll be right back with some french bread.

Thank you, Ted said, as she turned and hurried off.

Russell looked over at Ted, then asked in a serious tone, So is everyone still confirmed to be here tomorrow? No last-minute dropouts, or cancellations?

Nope; everyone’s arriving tomorrow, Ted replied, sounding relieved. And everyone’s confirmed—including Lance Crassler; I know you were worried about him backing out, and…

His mouth tightening, Russell interjected, "Someone like Crassler—who can write a blasphemous book entitled The Stupidity of Christianity, and the Ignorance of Jesus—ought to at least have the courage of his convictions, and be willing to defend his views publicly!"

I couldn’t agree more, Ted seconded. But his brief book tour is over now, and he doesn’t get a large number of requests for speeches on college campuses and places like that, which the more prominent atheists like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris get; so Crassler apparently had no problem fitting fifteen days and nights with us into his schedule. With a sly smile, he added, And he already deposited the checks we sent him for his fee, and the Per Diem; so he can’t back out now! and they both laughed heartily.

Ted added, "Oh, and in addition to the students from my college who are coming to watch the proceedings, we’ve got a half-dozen or so students who are enrolled in the grad program at Biola—I wish we had a fantastic grad program like Biola has—so altogether, we’ll have about two dozen participants and student observers."

That’s fine, Russell noted. Are the students staying at the hotel, or…

Ted shook his head, and said, No; we couldn’t afford that. They’re all bringing sleeping bags, and they’ll just bed down on the living room floor of a couple of Christian families from two of the local churches. With a slight smile, he added, So they’ll all be ‘roughing it’ for two weeks!

Russell smiled, and suggested, It’ll be a good experience for them; kind of like making the annual two-week summer ‘Missionary Trip’ to Mexico, that I did when I was that age.

Christina (the waitress) returned to their table, carrying a basket of warm sliced french bread. Here you are, gentlemen; can I get you anything else, in the meantime?

No, thanks, Ted replied. She smiled, and departed again. Ted held the basket of bread out to Russell, who raised his hand and said, No, thanks; Caroline wants me to cut down on the carbs. Giving Ted a ‘conspiratorial’ glance, he added in a stage whisper, "And don’t you dare tell her about my steak and potatoes!" and they both laughed.

Russell turned serious again, and asked, So the atheist Philosophy professor also confirmed?

He did, Ted replied, adding, In fact, he sounds rather eager to be participating, judging by his E-mails and text messages.

Tell me about him again, Russell requested, taking a sip of his water.

Ted gathered his thoughts for a moment as he chewed on a piece of bread, then explained, His name’s Norman Kentworth; he’s been the head of the Philosophy department at CSU Stentoria for… well, probably since the ’80s. He also started up a small ‘Skeptical Students’ group on campus quite a while back; and it’s now growing, and benefiting from all the publicity about the ‘New Atheists’ like Dawkins and Harris. From what I’ve heard, Kentworth seems like the archetypal ‘Atheist College Professor,’ who takes a sadistic pleasure in attacking the views of his unprepared Christian students. He apparently also tries to insert a ‘Sex and the Bible’ lecture into just about any class he teaches—even if it’s a class in Symbolic Logic!

Russell nodded with understanding, then asked, What’s his publication record like?

Ted replied, He’s written an Intro to Philosophy textbook, that remained in print until just a few years ago; but he’s published quite a bit in the standard professional journals. Mostly ‘Philosophy of Religion’ stuff—the sort of thing that Antony Flew used to do, before he became a Deist. A grin came over his lips, and he added, "But we’ve got a few surprises in store for Professor Kentworth: Dr. Nathan Crane, the guy who was a speaker for an Intelligent Design ‘think tank,’ used to be a student of Kentworth’s! So he can testify first-hand about all the vicious attacks this Kentworth guy subjects his Christian students to!"

Russell said grimly, "I recently spoke to a former colleague of mine at the Presbyterian Seminary that Nathan Crane used to teach at; and he told me that Crane was basically … well, asked to take a permanent ‘leave of absence,’ because of his support of Open Theism and Conditional Immortality; so, not surprisingly, Crane is pretty weak in his view of the Bible, as well."

Ted sighed, then acknowledged, I’m aware of that; but we didn’t impose any kind of ‘doctrinal standard’ on the Conference participants who are Christians, and he’s pretty well-regarded in the ID community, so I was hoping that…

He’ll be okay, Russell said easily. We’ve got enough ‘orthodox’ people to keep him in line, in any case. He took a sip of his water, then asked, What are the other ‘surprises’ you have in store for Professor Kent… but he stopped as Christina returned to the table, and placed his soup in front of him.

Sorry it took so long! she said apologetically.

That’s fine; thank you, Russell said, and she departed again.

Ted explained to the older man, The other ‘surprise’ is that the Deist guy, Martin Loftus, apparently also knew Kentworth, from back in his college days. I’m hoping that between him and Dr. Crane, we can make the point—if we need to—that there have been, and still are, atheist college professors out there who make a point of trying to ‘deconvert’ their Christian students. And with Crassler representing the ultra-belligerent ‘New Atheist’ standpoint, I think our Conference will have a pretty fair representation of the atheist viewpoint.

He snapped his fingers as he remembered something, then said, Oh, I almost forgot; Martin Loftus, the Deist, won’t be here at all for the first week. He’s only written the one book, but it’s not a bestseller like Crassler’s book was; far from it. Loftus told me over the phone that he’s actually a full-time worker for the State of California, and he says he can’t take off that long from work—not even if it might help the sales of his book!

Russell frowned, and asked, Weren’t there any other Deists you could find?

Sheepishly, Ted admitted, "Not really. Although there are all kinds of people these days—including a lot of scientists—for whom Deism basically represents what they actually believe, Deism as a philosophical viewpoint just doesn’t seem to have many people out there writing books and making speeches about it! There’s maybe two or three guys who used to do an occasional Podcast; and another guy has actually written a couple of books on the subject—but judging from the books that he promotes on his website, he seems to be kind of anti-Zionist, and maybe even anti-Jewish; so I didn’t think he’d fit in well with the Dispensationalists we’ve got coming to the Conference!"

Russell nodded his agreement, and observed, I think that was a wise decision.

Ted continued, So when I heard about the new book espousing Deism by this Martin Loftus guy, and I learned from a mutual acquaintance that he had this earlier connection with Professor Kentworth, I ‘Googled’ him, then looked up his ‘Author Biography’ on Amazon, got his E-mail address, and I approached him about the Conference. He said energetically, But I’ve since read the guy’s book: he doesn’t have a degree in the field, but he’s actually pretty sharp! His book is … well, a kind of a philosophical novel: it’s about a young guy whose pregnant wife passes away, and then he starts out on this ‘Quest’ to study all kinds of different religions and beliefs, because he wants to know if he’ll ever be reunited with his deceased wife. So I think he’ll do a pretty credible job of presenting and defending the Deist viewpoint, once he finally gets here.

We’ll see, Russell said noncommittally. He swallowed another spoonful of his soup, then said, "I’m a bit concerned that we have too many unbelievers participating in this Conference! We’ve got two Atheists; one Deist; one ID expert who seems like a born-and-bred liberal; and you’ve also got that Roman Catholic you invited, as well. So by my count, that’s five non-Bible Believers!"

Ted said defensively, "Well, the Roman Catholic is Dr. Francis Petrocelli; he teaches at a private Catholic college back east. But he’s very good on the traditional theistic ‘proofs’ for God’s existence; and since we’ve got an atheist Ph.D. Philosophy professor in our mix, I thought Dr. Petrocelli would be a good ‘balance’ for the Christian side. My specialty is the Bible, the Resurrection, and Miracles, of course; and you’re our authority on doctrinal issues. But if Kentworth starts throwing around terms like modus ponens, ‘category mistake,’ and ‘the genetic fallacy,’ I thought it might be helpful to have a bona fide Ph.D. philosopher on our team—since I only have a Master’s in Apologetics, and your doctorate is in theology."

Russell shrugged, and observed, "My experience with Roman Catholic ‘apologists,’ such as Karl Keating and Tim Staples, is that their ‘defense of the faith’ is mostly just trying to justify the unique and unbiblical practices of the Roman church: such as Mariolatry, the Papacy, and Purgatory."

Ted pointed out, "Dr. Petrocelli hasn’t written anything along those lines, to my knowledge. He’s more into the purely philosophical arguments: about the existence of God, Ethics, the Problem of Evil, Free Will, and such."

Russell insisted, There are lots of members of the Evangelical Philosophical Society and the Society of Christian Philosophers who have Ph.D.’s, and could have handled those issues very capably…

Ted (with frustration growing in his voice) replied, "I called more than two dozen people from the EPS and the SCP, but I couldn’t get anyone really good who could take off this much time! I mean, two-and-a-half weeks is a long time to be away from your regular duties, not to mention your family… Looking discouraged, he added weakly, I’m sorry, Russell; I tried to do my best…"

Russell recognized his younger colleague’s discomfort, and he said apologetically, "I’m sorry, Ted; I don’t mean to be so negative! You showed me the list of participants in advance, after all, and I approved your list. If I had any objections to people on the list, I shouldn’t have waited until now to voice them. Ted relaxed a bit after hearing this, and Russell added thoughtfully, I’m all the more glad that we’ve got both Gruden and Riddenbach on the team, though."

Ted nodded vigorously, and said with confidence, "Bart Gruden is, for my money, one of the best Presuppositionalists out there. And Mike Riddenbach is probably the most effective anti-evolution debater that’s currently writing and speaking; I’ve watched nearly a dozen of his debates on YouTube, and he always runs circles around his hapless Evolutionist opponent. And Mike’s website has got an answer for practically anything that the evolutionists can come up with."

He suddenly looked unsure of himself, and added cautiously, "I just hope that he’ll remember to keep his ‘Young Earth’ views under wraps, during the Conference. I don’t want us to get sidetracked with pointless arguments about Flood Geology, the ‘distant starlight’ problem, or precisely how many ‘kinds’ of animals could fit into Noah’s Ark! This is supposed to be a discussion about the existence of God, and the general evidence for Christianity—so it’s definitely not the place to discuss those kinds of ‘side issues’ within the Christian community, that even honest, Bible-Believing Evangelicals can have differing perspectives on."

Russell finished his soup, pushed away his plate, and stated, That’s why it will be so important for us to meet with all the Christian participants tomorrow—so we can firmly lay down the ‘ground rules’ for the Conference! What time are we scheduled to meet with them?

3:30, Ted replied. "That should give them time to get checked into the hotel, and freshen up, before we all get together. We’re meeting in the same conference room where we’ll be holding all of our group discussions; and at about 5:15, the hotel staff will bring in a buffet dinner. So hopefully, if we’re encountering any ‘differences’ among ourselves, we can iron them out in a more informal, dinner setting—before the Conference formally starts the next day."

That’s a good plan, Russell complimented. He was about to say something else, when Christina returned with their plates on a serving cart.

Dinner is served, gentlemen! she said brightly, as she placed their plates in front of them. When she was done, she refilled their water glasses, and asked, Is there anything else I can get you?

Ted and Russell looked at each other, and then Ted replied, No, we’re fine; everything looks great, Christina. Thanks!

You’re more than welcome, she said, winking at him, and then wheeling the cart away.

And the conversation stopped, while the two men ate their meals hungrily.

CHAPTER TWO

The Ground Rules

(Thursday afternoon, the first week)

Ted and Russell were sitting at the head of a long oval table in a hotel conference room, with four other men sitting around the table; there were also fifteen younger people (the students: about four-fifths males, and one-fifth females) who were sitting in chairs which had been placed all around the walls of the room.

Russell tapped on his water glass with a spoon, and the many excited conversations in the room quickly ceased. He said to the group, Thank all of you for your presence here at this Conference. As you know, I am Russell Thurlow; and my friend and colleague Ted Groftson and I are the organizers and hosts of this Conference. He nodded at Ted, indicating that he should speak next.

Ted smiled and said, First of all, I apologize profusely that we’re starting late; but unfortunately, that big rig overturning and blocking northbound I-5 stranded two of you on the freeway for more than an hour. Hopefully, everyone is now checked in, and somewhat settled in your rooms? He looked around at the others, and saw nothing but nods of agreement. He continued, "If there’s anything you need or require, please don’t hesitate to call me; you’ve all got my room phone number, my cell phone number, and my E-mail on that handout in front of you. Between myself, Russ, and the hotel staff, we hope that this will be not only a very productive seventeen days for all of us, but also a comfortable one!" and the group at the table laughed easily.

Ted suggested, Before we actually get started, why don’t we go around the room, and briefly introduce ourselves? Hearing general agreement with this suggestion, he said, "I’ll start off, then. I’m Theodore Groftson, but everyone calls me ‘Ted’; except for my wife—and then, only when I get in trouble with her…! and the group laughed heartily. He continued, I teach Apologetics at Apologia College, which is a fairly small and relatively new Christian college near the Southern California coast. I’m married, and we have two young sons. I haven’t written any books, yet, but I’ve published nearly a dozen articles in Philosophia Christi and Faith & Philosophy, and I’ve also made two presentations at EPS sessions. Seeing puzzled looks on the faces of a few of his hearers, he explained, EPS is the Evangelical Philosophical Society; they’re the ones who publish Philosophia Christi. Anyway, my professional specialties are defending the inspiration of the Bible; the Resurrection; and the philosophical justification of the miraculous." Finished, he turned and nodded to Russell.

Russell said, "And I am Dr. Russell Thurlow. As you can tell from my voice, I’m originally from the South. I teach Theology at a Baptist seminary just outside Orange County, and I’ve been there for more than twenty years, now. I’ve been married and in love with my wife for thirty-one years, and we have one son, who owns his own business. Ted and I have been good friends since we first met at an EPS meeting; and, as I said, we’re both the organizers of this Conference. So if you have any complaints, we’re the ones to blame!" and the others again laughed.

The dark-haired man on Russell’s right (who was wearing a formal three-piece suit, and was about the same age as Russell) spoke next, saying, "I’m Bartholomew Gruden, although I prefer to be called ‘Bart.’ I teach Theology and Apologetics at my seminary, and I am very emphatically a follower of the ‘Presuppositional approach’ to Apologetics as practiced by Drs. Cornelius Van Til, and Greg Bahnsen; and the two books I’ve written firmly articulate this approach to defending the faith. Theologically, I am also very firmly in the Reformed tradition! I’m happily married, and we have one son, and one daughter."

Next came a thin, very intense-looking man (seemingly in his late 20s, with neatly combed-back blond hair, who was wearing a sports coat, and a shirt with an open neck), who said with a strong English accent, "I’m Michael or ‘Mike’ Riddenbach; I’m the Spirit-filled Executive Director of the ‘Six Days Institute,’ which is a clearinghouse and ‘think tank’ for true Creationists located in Melbourne, Australia. I’ve written more than two dozen books and booklets, recorded more than twenty DVDs and CDs explaining and defending the literal Creationist viewpoint, and I’ve debated and soundly defeated every evolutionist who’s ever been brave enough to share the same platform with me."

After he finished, the distinguished-looking man (with a full head of graying hair and a neatly trimmed ‘Van Dyke’ beard) sitting on the other side of the table cleared his throat, and said, And I am Francis or ‘Skip’ Petrocelli; I am a philosopher by trade, and I teach Philosophy at a Catholic college back east. Insofar as I have a professional ‘specialty,’ I suppose it would be arguments for the existence of God—ranging from the arguments of Plato and Aristotle, to Augustine, Anselm, and Thomas Aquinas, and continuing right on up to contemporary times. Currently, I’m particularly interested in the ‘Moral Argument’ for God’s existence. I’ve written five books, and published numerous articles and papers over the years. And I’ve been married for thirty years, and we have five children, and four grandchildren… so far! which produced a hearty laugh from the group. All eyes in the room now turned to the last man sitting at the table.

The somewhat overweight man (who seemed to be in his mid-50s, and whose head was neatly shaved on top, and salt-and-pepper ‘grayish’ on the sides) smiled, and said, Good afternoon, everyone. I’m delighted to be here, and to be participating in this important event. My name is Nathan Crane, and I teach Science and Apologetics at a private liberal arts college in the northeast; my professional area of specialty is Intelligent Design, as well as philosophical apologetics—like Alvin Plantinga, Richard Swinburne, William Alston, Nicholas Wolterstorff, Robert and Marilyn Adams, and many others. I have three grown daughters, who have all graduated from Christian colleges, and two of them are now married—and the oldest is carrying her first baby, who’s due in late October! This produced a smattering of appreciative applause from the listeners. He added sheepishly, "I’m clearly the ‘lightweight’ of this group in terms of publications; but six of my most popular public lectures are available on CD, MP3, or DVD."

Ted smiled broadly after Nathan had finished, and said to the group, "Well, thank all of you very much. I think we have a very brilliant group of scholars here, and I think our atheistic and Deistic participants will soon discover that they have more than ‘met their match,’ during this Conference." This produced a general round of applause.

Looking around the room, he added in a very sober tone, "But I would just ask all of us to always remember: we’re not here just to win an argument! We are all here to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the reality and assurance of God’s love, that we experience in our own lives. And we all know that those who are unbelievers are not our ‘enemies,’ but are themselves the victims of the Deceiver, as well as the unbelieving ‘Spirit of this Age.’ Many, and perhaps most of us, were once unbelievers ourselves; until, by the grace of God, we found Christ. So we absolutely want to always treat our unbelieving participants with the utmost of courtesy, and kindness; our ‘witness’ to them, and to the watching world, will not just be based upon the words we speak—but equally importantly, on how we speak them."

There were nods of agreement from all of the participants… except for Bartholomew Gruden, who said to the group, "Well, from what I’ve seen of this Lance Crassler fellow on television interviews and YouTube, he appears to be a rather disagreeable person—which we might have guessed, given the offensive title of his book! With a grim expression, he added quietly, So I will reserve my right to invoke the biblical principle of Lex Talionis, should his attacks get too out of hand!"

Russell patted Bartholomew’s shoulder, trying to mollify his colleague, and saying reassuringly, I wouldn’t concern myself unduly about that, Bart; Ted and I will be serving as the ‘moderators’ of both the formal speeches, and the roundtable discussion sessions—and we’ll certainly halt any language or conduct that goes beyond the limits of civility, and reasoned discourse.

Bartholomew shrugged, and replied calmly, Tell that to Crassler, not to me.

At this point, one of the young male students sitting against the wall said loudly, "To me, Lance Crassler has a very appropriate last name; because I’ve read his book, and crass—meaning rude, insensitive, gross, and lacking refinement—is exactly what his book exemplifies!" Several of the student’s peers applauded this statement.

With a rueful smile, Ted said to the young man who had spoken out, "Well, Roger: that’s exactly the kind of statement that we want to avoid, during this Conference. The young man looked intensely embarrassed, as Ted explained to the group, In addition to being somewhat impulsive, Roger happens to be one of my very best students at Apologia; so I’m glad that he got that remark ‘out of his system’ here—where we are among our fellow Christians—and not out in public; or, even worse, in the presence of Mr. Crassler himself. He smiled and gave a reassuring thumbs up" sign to Roger (who looked immensely relieved by this reassuring gesture).

Russell said to the group, in a serious tone, "While all of us are making a considerable sacrifice in coming here for such a long Conference, I hope that we all can fully appreciate the significance of what we are doing here: While many in the Christian church have responded in various ways to the so-called ‘New Atheists’—such as Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, the late Christopher Hitchens, and more recently Lance Crassler—their evil viewpoints appear to be finding increasing acceptance in our Postmodern, secularist modern culture; a number of their books have been on the New York Times bestseller list for long periods of time. I think we all feel that it is high time that Christ’s church refuted the nonsensical assertions of such persons in a clear and definitive way, so that no honest observer can doubt that traditional Christianity has been completely vindicated, and the atheist position thoroughly vanquished!" This remark vigorous applause from the participants.

Ted said, "I have been keenly interested in Apologetics ever since I was converted to Christ as a teenager; and I now teach Apologetics at my college, which is sponsoring this Conference. But, while I have personally read hundreds of books, listened to hundreds of audio programs, and watched zillions of videos on various aspects of Christian Apologetics, I have often been disappointed by the near-complete lack of awareness for the compelling ‘Case for Christianity’ not only among the secular public at large, but even among many professing Evangelicals! I can’t tell you the number of times that one of my new incoming students have told me in the early days of one of my classes, ‘Wow! I never realized that there were so many good arguments and evidences that support my Christian faith!’" A number of heads in the room sadly nodded their agreement.

He continued, "But you, like me, may have also become frustrated with our attempts to engage atheists and other skeptics. There have been dozens and dozens of occasions in which a Christian group will organize a debate between, say, William Lane Craig, and a prominent atheist like Christopher Hitchens, Lawrence Krauss, or Victor Stenger. And although Bill Craig always presents a truly masterful case for Christian faith, and thoroughly refutes whatever weak arguments the atheist might try to put forth, the constraints of time are simply working against us. After about two hours of formal presentations, the average modern audience is simply mentally exhausted, from trying to evaluate all of the information being presented to him or her in such a rapid-fire manner.

"And, in our postmodern culture, the fact that there is a lay public watching the debate—one who was raised on television and movies—tends to strongly favor the debater who ‘looks the best,’ or who is the ‘best speaker,’ rather than the person who presents the most persuasive evidence for his or her case. And someone with an English accent—such as Richard Dawkins, and the late Christopher Hitchens—is frequently perceived by an average American audience as being the most intelligent debater, simply because we like their accents!" A number of the others in the room murmured their agreement with this statement.

Ted went on, "The most ‘productive’ part of such debates is usually a period in which the participants are able to question each other directly, and challenge each other on specific points. Most of the listeners muttered their fervent agreement with this observation. He continued, But, given the time structure of such formal debates, it seems as if the debate Moderator is invariably required to cut short this discussion—no matter how fruitful it may seem to be proceeding—because some arbitrary, pre-established time limit has been reached! And so, the atheistic or skeptical debaters are then able to make their brief closing statements, and perhaps deal with a few irrelevant, meandering, or poorly-worded questions from the audience—after which they escape from the auditorium with their substantial speaker’s fee in their pocket, and proudly proclaim to their own supporters that they ‘fought the Christian apologist to a standstill,’ or even claim that they won the debate! And, sadly, some unbelieving members of a general audience may actually believe this."

A smile came to his lips, and he said brightly, "But that’s what is so unique about this Conference—time is virtually not a constraint for us! We will be sitting at this very table for two full weeks, across from two atheists and a Deist, and we will have to opportunity to ‘cross-examine’ them at length about their beliefs. And the discussions will all be professionally recorded, and then transcribed, so that there will be no doubt about just what was actually said. And the fact that the initial formal presentations and then our table discussions will be closed to the public, will hopefully eliminate the ‘entertainment’ or ‘show business’ aspect, that so frequently dominates such debates. So I think that…"

They were interrupted by a soft knock at the door, so Ted stopped speaking abruptly; the door was quietly opened, and a middle-aged Latina (wearing the black-and-white formal attire of the hotel staff) peered into the room. Spying Ted, she said apologetically, I’m so sorry to interrupt, Mr. Groftson; but we need to come in and start setting up for the buffet…

He waved for her to come in, so she signaled to the four people standing behind her, and they began wheeling in carts containing food, beverages, and utensils.

Ted looked around at all the young people sitting in chairs around the walls of the room, then smiled and said warmly to them, Nine of you are students traveling from Apologia College; I understand that the other six of you are studying at Biola? These other students nodded, or replied verbally. Ted addressed all of the students, saying, You’re all very welcome to share in today’s buffet dinner, of course; I’m only sorry that our budget didn’t allow us to provide you with hotel rooms or Per Diem during the Conference itself. But please: help yourself to any of this delicious-smelling food, once it’s ready for us. (The students—not to mention the other participants sitting around the table—all had ‘hungry’ expressions on their faces.)

While the hotel staff continued their set-up, Ted addressed the students again, saying, And even though you won’t be able to participate in the roundtable discussions over the next two weeks, if you have any ‘burning questions’ that you feel you want to ask any of the participating unbelievers, you can always write them down and pass them on to us, during one of the breaks, or at the beginning or end of the day.

Russell nodded his agreement, then looked around the table at the other five participants, and said quietly, "And I would just like to emphasize again what was requested of you in the information packet you all received prior to coming here: that we are here to present and defend what C.S. Lewis called ‘Mere Christianity’—that is, traditional, orthodox Christianity, as expressed in the ecumenical Creeds of the church; without any of the ‘denominational’ trappings, or distinctive doctrines, that most of us adhere to firmly."

He looked around the room, and added, "I myself am a lifelong Southern Baptist; I am a Dispensationalist, a non-charismatic, a ‘Pre-Trib, Pre-Mill,’ an ‘Evidentialist’ in apologetics, and a registered Republican who voted—with some considerable moral reservations, I might add—for Donald Trump in 2016. I’m also an Old Earth ‘Day Ager’ when it comes to the age of the Earth. Now, I fully understand that many or most of you may have substantial disagreements with these personal positions of mine. But I would plead with you to remain silent about these differences, as will I, for the duration of this Conference. If you believe in a single worldwide Flood; or Tongues; or Postmillennialism, Amillennialism, or Preterism; or the Shroud of Turin; or ‘King James Only’; please understand that this is not the time or place to discuss those issues! We all believe that God is the Creator of the universe, that the Bible is His Word to us, and that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh: who performed miracles during His earthly ministry, and was resurrected from the dead on the third day. That is all that we need to articulate and defend for the next seventeen days…"

But without warning, the imposing figure of Lance Crassler (a stocky man in his 40s, with a full head of light brown hair) suddenly strode boldly into the room. Looking around, he said (in a voice dripping with sarcasm), "Well, now: isn’t this a cozy little private discussion? I’m certainly glad that I decided to check into the hotel a day early, so that I didn’t miss your pre-Conference Christian plotting against the Atheist side!" (All of the Conference participants and students were so shocked by this sudden and unexpected appearance, that they fell into embarrassed silence.)

Ted stammered, Uhh… Mr. Crassler, I’m… we, uhh, didn’t expect you until tomorrow…

That’s quite obvious, came the biting reply. Crassler looked around at the students sitting along the walls, and said to Ted, "You even brought your own audience, I see. I thought this event was supposed to be closed to the public?"

Chagrined, Ted explained, "To the general public, yes; but these young people are all college students in Apologetics and Evangelism—so this seemed like a good opportunity for them to be able to observe…"

Crassler interrupted sharply, "But from outside the door, I just heard you suggest that they could slip you questions to ask us ‘unbelievers’ if they wished: did I not? Ted turned crimson, and Crassler continued, So not only have you ‘stacked the deck’ by having seven God-believers versus only two Atheists, but you’ve brought in, what: more than a baker’s dozen acolytes to applaud your every statement? And this is apparently your idea of a ‘fair,’ ‘even-handed’ discussion?" Ted was shamed into silence, as were the others.

Russell said (attempting to make his voice sound calm), Mr. Crassler, you’re welcome to bring in an equal number of students, or—well, you don’t teach anywhere, so I suppose that you don’t have any ‘students’—but you’re welcome to bring in any supporters of yours, that you want to invite to…

Crassler held up his hand to silence Russell, then said caustically, "Oh, noooo; I wouldn’t think of tampering with the ‘loaded’ hand of cards that you’ve already dealt me … from the bottom of the deck! He pretended to think, then said, Now, let’s see; I suppose I could at least try to get together with my Atheist colleague and strategize before we begin, tomorrow—what was his name again? ‘Kentworth,’ or was it ‘Wentworth’?—except that you didn’t bother to give me his phone number, or even his E-mail address, when you originally roped me into this ‘staged’ ambush!"

Ted said weakly, His name’s Norman Kentworth; and I’ll be glad to give you all of his contact inf…

Don’t bother, Crassler said dismissively. "Quite frankly, the Atheist position is so strong, that it really doesn’t matter how much you ignoramuses try to tilt the pinball machine—Christians are inevitably destined to be losers in any genuine intellectual debate! So go right ahead, and carry on with your plotting—the good ship of Atheism stands fast: unmoved, and unafraid! He turned contemptuously on his heel and headed back to the door, only to suddenly wheel around again, and say, Oh, and don’t hold any illusions that you’ll be able to limit these discussions to this so-called ‘Mere Christianity’; I see no reason now not to fully exploit the fact that you professing Christians are so blatantly divided among yourselves, on issues such as the age of the Earth, Flood Geology, speaking in Tongues, and other matters! And you may rely upon me to make these differences blatantly obvious during the recorded discussions!" He turned and exited swiftly through the open door. The Christians were all seemingly stunned into shocked silence.

Finally, the female hotel employee (who had opened the door to the serving staff earlier) asked Ted tentatively, Excuse me, Mr. Groftson; but everything is ready now for your dinner. Is there anything else you would like?

Still reeling from Crassler’s surprise visit, Ted replied diffidently, Oh, uhh… no; no thanks. We’re fine. Thank you very much… The hotel staff then silently headed out the exit. The majority of the students used this as a cue to jump up, and head quickly over to the trays of food that they had been smelling for minutes. The participants around the table all got in line behind them; everyone was excitedly talking about what had just happened, as well as the earlier discussions.

Russell and Ted were the last ones in the food line. Ted just shook his head, and muttered despondently to himself, Oh, Lord; if this Conference falls apart before it’s even started, the College will be out thousands and thousands of dollars, and I’ll be…

Russell patted Ted’s shoulder reassuringly, and said, Don’t worry about it, Ted; ‘All things work together for good to them that love God,’ remember? With a slight smile, he added quietly, "Besides: Crassler signed a contract, just like the rest of us did—and you told me that he’s already cashed his payment! And remember, there was nothing in the contract he or we signed that said we couldn’t bring in ‘student observers,’ or have private meetings among ourselves, before the formal Conference began."

Ted nodded, but then said resolutely, I’ve lost my appetite; I’m going to go and try to find Mr. Crassler, and apologize.

Russell shrugged, and replied, Suit yourself, as he picked up a plate from the table in front of him, and moved forward in line.

57464.png

Ted didn’t see Crassler anywhere in the hall, and he thought, Where can he have gone? I’d better check the front desk, in case he plans to check out of the hotel… and he headed quickly to the elevator.

Getting off the elevator in the Lobby, he hurried over to the Registration desk; he let out a silent sigh of relief as he didn’t see Crassler there. Then he turned around, and noticed a prominent sign with a pointing arrow, which said: Restaurant/Bar. He thought, That could be where he went to, if not back to his room, so he swiftly headed in that direction.

As he arrived at the restaurant, the young man at the restaurant entrance recognized Ted, and said brightly, Good evening, Sir. Will you be dining alone, or will your friend be joining you?

Ted ignored the question, as he looked frantically at all the customers in the restaurant; Crassler was nowhere to be seen.

The young man suggested, If you’re meeting someone here, perhaps he or she is having a drink at the bar…

That’s a good idea; thanks! Ted replied, quickly walking over to the entrance of the bar. Entering the darkened room, he almost immediately spotted Crassler sitting in a corner booth, with a nearly empty martini glass in front of him.

Ted hesitated, unsure of how to proceed. A thought occurred to him, and he went over to the bar, and asked the bartender, Can I get a glass of white wine, please? The man nodded, picked up a glass from a nearby stack, and filled it with wine, saying, Ten dollars, please, as he placed the glass in front of Ted.

Nearly balking at the unexpectedly high price, Ted took out his wallet and placed a ten-dollar bill on the bar, then picked up his glass, and headed slowly over in Crassler’s direction.

Approaching the table Crassler was seated at, Ted said tentatively, Excuse me, Mr. Crassler? I just wanted to say how…

Crassler held up his hand to silence him, and said stiffly, If you wish to speak with me, you first need to buy me another vodka martini; very dry, please.

Oh; uhh, sure, Ted replied, heading back to the bar and ordering the drink. He handed the bartender a $20 bill, and was aghast to see that he was only handed $4 back in change. My word, he thought, in just two minutes here, I’ve already spent my entire Per Diem for tomorrow!

As he came back to Crassler’s table, holding both his glass of wine as well as the martini, Crassler said in a friendlier tone, "Since you now approach me bearing the gift of alcohol, you are welcome to take a seat." He immediately downed the rest of his first martini, then slid over slightly on the circular bench seat, to make more room for Ted. Ted placed the drinks down carefully on the table, and then sat down nervously.

Crassler held out his hand, and said with a genial smile, We’ve spoken on the phone, E-mailed, and texted, but we’ve never been formally introduced: I’m Lance.

Ted, came the reply, as they shook hands.

Lance started to pick up his martini, when he looked over at Ted’s glass of wine, and said with surprise, "Wait a minute: I thought you were supposed to be a Christian! Christians don’t drink booze!"

Ted replied hesitantly, "The Bible nowhere prohibits the moderate use of alcohol; it’s only the immoderate use that is…"

Skip it, Lance said, waving off the explanation, and taking a large swallow of his new martini.

Ted began, "I just wanted to say how sorry I am about the impression you had, from overhearing part of our pre-Conference meeting. But we certainly weren’t … well, ‘plotting’ against you, or anything of the sort. We just wanted to make sure that we spent our discussion time as constructively as possible, by not getting diverted from the main issues we are here to discuss. And the students… well, I guess now that I think of it, maybe we shouldn’t allow them to ask any questions; but this Conference just seemed like such a unique educational experience for them, that I felt we should…"

Don’t sweat it, Lance said, taking another swallow of his martini. That’s exactly the kind of behavior that I would expect from Christians: staging the whole program to work to your advantage.

Ted couldn’t think of anything to say, so he took a small sip of his wine, as he tried to think of another approach. Finally, he said, We’re all looking forward to your presentation tomorrow; and to discussing it with you afterwards…

A sneer coming over his lips, Lance replied caustically, "Oh, I’ll just bet that you’re ‘looking forward’ to hearing me; it’s more like you’re looking forward to trying to ambush me, every chance you get!"

Ted protested, "No, that’s not true! We want all the participants in the discussions to be able to fully and completely express themselves, so that they feel fairly presented in the book that we…"

Lance held up his hand, then finished his second martini in a single gulp. He patted Ted’s hand playfully, and said, "Don’t worry, though; I was just kidding earlier, about bringing out all of your ‘inter-Christian disagreements,’ during the discussions. I really don’t give a shit about any of your Tongues/No Tongues, Young/Old Earth fights; I just want to demonstrate for the record how pitifully lame all of your biggest Christian ‘arguments’ are! And hopefully, some people out there are still intelligent enough to be able to understand the logical fallacies in your positions, that I shall duly point out."

Ted said reassuringly, You’ll certainly have that opportunity; and your viewpoints will be fully carried in the book which we produce from this Conference, of course.

Lance toyed with his empty glass, and then shrugged and said thoughtfully, "Of course, my viewpoints are already ‘fully carried’ in my own book, of course—which I’m sure none of you have ever read…"

I read your book, Ted replied quickly. I completely disagreed with nearly all of it, of course. And… I thought that the belligerent tone in your title, and in the book itself was … well, rather unnecessary, and uncalled-for.

Lance nodded, and admitted, "The title of my book was actually the suggestion of my publisher; they said, ‘We need something more attention-grabbing than ‘The Case Against Christianity,’ or ‘Why I am Not a Christian’; other Atheists have already used both those titles, anyway. So I went along with them, and they proved to be right—Atheists all across the country, particularly young ones, love my ‘in-your-face,’ ‘take no prisoners’ approach to the subject, which is reflected in the book’s title."

I see, Ted commented, taking another sip of his wine.

Lance looked Ted directly in the eyes, and said in a softer tone, "But even though I despise the idiocy and foolishness of your Christian ideas, I don’t detest you personally. I used to be one of you, in fact…"

You were a Christian? Ted asked, greatly surprised.

Lance nodded, and said, "As a child, I was raised in a Pentecostal Holiness Church; so believe me, I’ve seen Christian hysteria, Charismania, and Christian hypocrisy, from ‘up close and personal’!"

With genuine interest, Ted asked, At what age did you consider yourself a Christian? And when did you… but his companion quickly held up his hand to stop him.

Lance said, If you want to hear more, you’ll have to wait for my speech tomorrow. Or, if you want to hear a condensed version of it right now, you need to buy me another martini.

Ted was surprised, and then embarrassed (as he realized he didn’t have that much cash with him). He stammered, Uhh…

Lance gave a ‘knowing’ nod, and said reassuringly, "These hotel prices for