In this episode of the Social-Engineer podcast, Chris Hadnagy and Maxie Reynolds are joined by Dr. Ida Ngambeki, an Assistant Professor of Computer and Information Technology at Purdue University. Listen in as they discuss importance of empathy and the best ways to teach social engineering.  April 12, 2021 00:00 – Intro  Join Social-Engineering on Slack Clutch  The Innocent Lives Foundation     03:25 – Introduction to Dr. Ida Ngambeki  04:20 – How Ida got into social engineering  08:45 – Teaching the next generation of social engineers  11:30 – Teaching the distinct aspects of social engineering  17:05 – The difference between a pentester and a malicious actor  19:01 – The importance of bias and assumptions  20:36 – Ida’s unconventional path to social engineering expertise  24:42 – The importance of empathy in security education  27:50 – The three aspects of empathy  30:04 – Diversity in the information security industry  34:22 – Chris getting held at gunpoint  39:50 – The problem with fear-based pretexts  42:32 - Ida’s industry mentors  Donna Riley    Demitra Evangelou    Melisa Dark    Alejandrah Magana   William Gratiano    Mark Rogers  45:14 – Ida's book recommendations  Terry Pratchett  The Secret Lives of Baba Segi's Wives  Neil Gaiman  The Tenth Muse  Code Girls  47:59 – Ida's contact info  cybersecurelab.com  Purdue’s Website  49:23 – Maxie's book  The Art of Attack: Attacker Mindset for Security Professionals  51:02 - Outro  Maxie on Twitter  Chris on Twitter  Social-Engineer on Twitter