In the conclusion of our four-part series on LGBTQ people and the church, we speak with Drs. Dawne Moon, a sociologist, and Theresa Tobin, a philosopher, who research and write collaboratively about the experiences of LGBTQ Christians in non-affirming church spaces. This conversation is frank, profound, heartbreaking, and, somehow, funny. We discuss their concept of "sacramental shame" and how it's used against LGBTQ people, what binary gender has to do with sexuality, the origin of gender complementarianism, whether it makes sense to be egalitarian but non-affirming, the importance of relationship for identifying love, how love and pride are related, and more.You can find some of Dawne and Theresa's work together at these links:Relationship, Humility, JusticeAlpha, Omega, and the Letters in Between: LGBTQI Conservative Christians Undoing GenderSunsets and Solidarity: Overcoming Sacramental Shame in Conservative Christian Churches to Forge a Queer Vision of Love and JusticeThe Politics of Shame in the Motivation to Virtue: Lessons from the Shame, Pride, and Humility Experiences of LGBT Conservative Christians and Their AlliesThe whiskey we tasted in this episode is Oppidan Four Grain Straight Bourbon.Content note: this episode contains discussion of clergy sexual abuse and spiritual violence.Production note: we unfortunately had some equipment malfunction in this interview and so had to rely on audio from Zoom for our guests, which is why their audio quality is not up to our usual standards. Apologies.Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher)