In this conversation, Erik Kucherenko and Artem Shaipov speak with Oleksandr Novikov, Head of Ukraine’s National Agency on Corruption Prevention between 2020-2024, about his experience of building state capacity.We discuss the implementation of Objectives and Key Results methodology, business school training for civil servants working on anti-corruption, and the role of organisational mission and values. Oleksandr shares his successful experience of building an effective institution and recommends books that motivated him to achieve these recognised results.