Yascha Mounk and Simon Fanshawe also discuss how gay and lesbian rights were won—and what that should teach today’s activists.

Simon Fanshawe is an activist, writer, and consultant who is a co-founder of Stonewall UK and the rector of the University of Edinburgh. His book is The Power of Difference: Where the Complexities of Diversity and Inclusion Meet Practical Solutions.

In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Simon Fanshawe discuss whether there is a tension between hiring for merit and hiring for the value of having different kinds of life experiences present in organizations; how the gay rights movement framed the debate around legal equality and toleration rather than asking the public to affirm gay and lesbian identities; and why building alliances and finding common ground are essential for achieving social change and creating a more inclusive society.

This transcript has been condensed and lightly edited for clarity.

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