Nora and Nathan discuss the second studio album from Gracie Abrams: 'The Secret of Us.' They then talk about Taylor Swift's influence on and close relationship with Abrams, as well as whether that's helping or hurting Abrams's music (1:00). Later, they get into how her songs feel the strongest when her lyrics are plain-spoken (39:37), and how, with this album, it seems like Abrams is still trying to find her distinct musical sound (47:46).

Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard
Producer: Kaya McMullen
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices